Curse

Gmr Leon · Jul 13, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And it seems to me that, while you are making up your theory, you forget that nothing but the Hall of Heores resides in the Hall of Heroes (location-wise) and that the Hall of Heroes is in the afterlife, thus the dead would have "moved on to the afterlife" on the instance of death. Which thus causes another problem of the biggest confusion in Guild Wars Lore.

Actually, keep in mind that the dead have to be extremely heroic, known across the multiverse, before they can be ensconced into the Hall of Heroes. That aside, he means the living fellows who fight and die there, as in the battles in Heroes' Ascent.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 13, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

I find it very hard to be "known across the multiverse" - if that was a requirement, then the Hall would probably be very unoccupied. And I know what he meant - but clearly you do not know what I meant.

When one dies, their spirit lingers until an Envoy or Avatar shows. The spirit then "moves on" which would be going to the afterlife. The Hall of Heroes is one of the many afterworlds, thus when a living being dies in the Hall of Heroes, the spirit automatically "moves on" since it is thus, automatically, in the afterworld. And that causes an issue with the resurrection "requirement" ideas - specifically the one I mentioned before I said what you quoted, Leon.

Gmr Leon · Jul 13, 2009, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I find it very hard to be "known across the multiverse" - if that was a requirement, then the Hall would probably be very unoccupied.

Well, technically, it is empty whenever players visit it, so..

But apparently it must be a bit easier than we expected, as it didn't exactly sound like a small amount of souls attacked Odran. And I'm sure you know I'm not just spewing nonsense here, it's said right in the Manuscripts in the section about the Rift and the Hall of Heroes, although, taking another look, it says "known across multiple worlds," but that's still quite the achievement. Turns out it's the Hall of Heroes known across the multiverse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And I know what he meant - but clearly you do not know what I meant.

When one dies, their spirit lingers until an Envoy or Avatar shows. The spirit then "moves on" which would be going to the afterlife. The Hall of Heroes is one of the many afterworlds, thus when a living being dies in the Hall of Heroes, the spirit automatically "moves on" since it is thus, automatically, in the afterworld. And that causes an issue with the resurrection "requirement" ideas - specifically the one I mentioned before I said what you quoted, Leon.

That, and I wasn't particularly concerned with the issue at hand, so I didn't attempt to comprehend what you were saying any further. However, I see what you mean, but technically, I would say the spirit, even if it is already in an "afterworld", does not mean it has moved on to there. It still needs to be "filed." Consider the spirits in the Underworld, for instance, they're already technically in an "afterworld", but they still need to be judged and organized into the proper area. When the Reapers are trapped, everything goes wrong there because they aren't capable of sending them to the appropriate regions of the Underworld.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2009, 02:02 AM // 02:02

But those very same spirits you talk about, Leon, I gave as an example of spirits who are not yet judged (or "filed") but cannot return to the world of the living!

Gmr Leon · Jul 14, 2009, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Alright, hold on, what on Tyria are we talking about? What I was talking about, was about the spirits in the Hall of Heroes from the living who just died there, are we on the same wavelength here? Whenever a living person dies in the Hall of Heroes, in-game, be it accessing it through the Tomb of the Primeval Kings or Heroes' Ascent, they can be resurrected, am I mistaken?

Ok..I think I now get what you were saying. Those spirits in the Underworld, while not judged yet, have still been ensconced there by the Envoys. Let's look at it this way, there are several possibilities for why they cannot be resurrected there:

Lack of body in close proximity.
Spirit and body are no longer in the same plane of existence.
Spirit has already been ensconced to the Underworld for judgment. I.e. The second possibility above.
Body has been completely destroyed, thus, only option is for the spirit to be ensconced to the Underworld.

In the case of the living who die in the Hall of Heroes, their souls are not automatically placed there because they don't technically fit all of the above. The living individual's body is still there, on the same plane, so they can technically be resurrected. It isn't completely destroyed, although, it can be, as shown by Lord Odran's tale, which is also an indicator that one's soul does not automatically get sent there. And..Yeah, basically, the soul and body are not separated in different planes.

See, with the ghosts we see in the Underworld, they've been dead for at least two years; well, except the ghost we get a quest from, we've no idea how long he's been there, likewise for Mayor Alegheri. This tells us that no one was in a close enough proximity to resurrect them or their body wasn't in close enough proximity to be resurrected, those that could resurrect them were dead, their body's were far too damaged to be resurrected and thus their spirit was already ensconced into the Underworld for judgment.

The exception to the rule, of course, being the ghosts we see in the Crystal Desert, Desolation, Ascalon, and wherever else. It seems that they may be those spirits that merely have "unfinished business" or are not yet ready to pass on, so Grenth puts their ensconcing on the backburner while he takes care of the more high priority souls. (E.g. Possibly those souls closest to the blast during the Cataclysm, i.e. souls of those contaminated by Abaddon and etc.)

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Consider the spirits in the Underworld, for instance, they're already technically in an "afterworld", but they still need to be judged and organized into the proper area. When the Reapers are trapped, everything goes wrong there because they aren't capable of sending them to the appropriate regions of the Underworld.

That is what I was commenting on, Leon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Whenever a living person dies in the Hall of Heroes, in-game, be it accessing it through the Tomb of the Primeval Kings or Heroes' Ascent, they can be resurrected

This is the act which I said throws a wrench into the understanding of Resurrection in a lore basis, and something I prefer to not look at as I view it as more of a game mechanic than lore (would be boring PvP if all kinds of PvP are one time kill matches, after all).

And the Hall of Heroes isn't the only place where this issue resides. There is also the Realm of Torment which has resurrection shrines in a realm of the afterlife.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Lack of body in close proximity.
Spirit and body are no longer in the same plane of existence.

Those two, really, are all you need to say. And those two would close fix that wrench I mentioned just above.

And the "closeness" thing could explain the selection of the Resurrection Shrine where you get resurrected - the closest one activated. Though, again, that could be more of game mechanic and less than lore.

Resurrection is my least favorite lore topic.

Gmr Leon · Jul 14, 2009, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That is what I was commenting on, Leon.

Which is what I realized after the first paragraph of my previous post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This is the act which I said throws a wrench into the understanding of Resurrection in a lore basis, and something I prefer to not look at as I view it as more of a game mechanic than lore (would be boring PvP if all kinds of PvP are one time kill matches, after all).

And the Hall of Heroes isn't the only place where this issue resides. There is also the Realm of Torment which has resurrection shrines in a realm of the afterlife.

Those two, really, are all you need to say. And those two would close fix that wrench I mentioned just above.

And the "closeness" thing could explain the selection of the Resurrection Shrine where you get resurrected - the closest one activated. Though, again, that could be more of game mechanic and less than lore.

Resurrection is my least favorite lore topic.

Right..So..Hasn't my rambling technically found the best solution for the entire issue of Resurrection, for the time being at least, albeit not initially intended?

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2009, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Entire issue? No. Just that particular issue.

There is still the issue of what deems a person resurrectable. That is, past the idea of the spirit having moved on. You only fixed the issue of resurrection in the afterlife.

Gmr Leon · Jul 14, 2009, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Technically..It can still apply to the real-world. If the body's destroyed or mutilated beyond recognition, you can't honestly expect to be able to resurrect it even if the soul is still on the same plane. E.g. Togo and Prince Rurik. However, it would appear that they can be resurrected in a way, albeit in the form of necromantic reanimation, in the case of Prince Rurik. So..If the body's destroyed, they simply cannot be resurrected, if they are mutilated beyond recognition, there is a chance that they can be resurrected, but only through reanimation.

You cut out the last option on the list I laid out, which I think still does hold a proper place, obviously. The second and third could easily be assimilated.

(By the way, ever notice those two are the only ones decapitated?)

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2009, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

(By the way, ever notice those two are the only ones decapitated?)

Togo isn't decapitated.

Nor is Rurik, technically, you can see his neck is fully attached as an undead. But you can see that the armor got cut off by the axe of Dagmar.

Gmr Leon · Jul 14, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Who says you can't reattach a head through reanimation?

Also, it's pretty heavily implied that Rurik's head is chopped off, I thought, at least. Right as Dagnar goes over to kill him, it cuts to black, and you hear a blade-going-through-flesh sound.

Also, and I'd have to check this, but I thought they had a head plop sound effect whenever Shiro killed Togo. The position he was kneeling in seemed to imply his head being prepared to be chopped off to me, at any rate.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2009, 09:15 AM // 09:15

That "plop" sound was most likely just the body hitting the floor - which would be the case for all deaths - NPC or PC. Especially the Ritualist model (I used that sound in a video contest once, had to listen to it many times while testing).

And even if you can reattach a head in animation, it would still show signs. And all showings of undeath animation shows visual affects of how one died (along with decay)... usually at least.

draxynnic · Jul 14, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

In Rurik's case, it might simply be that when the Vizier got hold of the body, raising him as a controlled undead suited his purpose more than as a free-willed living being. By the time we got to him, on the other hand, the body was decayed beyond the point that a resurrection spell could fix.

Arghore · Jul 15, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Resurrection is my least favorite lore topic.

As we seem to drift off topic anyway, i might aswell give resurrection a place in lore; For me Resurrection (atleast for us players) is simply a gift from Dwayna (we get the resurrection signet from a monk, from the venture as team quest in pre-searing); So for me it does not only serve a game feature, but it is part of Dwayna's 'magic' aiding the 'weak'.

I am unsure which signet/rez one gets on Cantha,
but i have seen the sunspear signet on Elona..

Monks then seem to hold the major Res powers (inspired by Dwayna)
The Ritualist seems to be a bit of a Grenth/Dwayna inspired profession, having flesh of my flesh which seems to be a bit of a necro rez.
The Paragon on the other hand seems to be more of a Baltazar/Dwayna combo..

For me, (having all campains, but mainly stayed in Prophecies) it is also a bit hard to see which Gods supply the magic for the professions in the other campains. where on Tyria it is fairy simple..

War and Fire: Balthazar --> Warrior
Beauty, Illusion, Energy and Chaos: Lyssa --> Mesmer
Earth and Nature: Melandru --> Ranger
Death and Ice: Grenth --> Necro
Life and Air: Dwayna ---> Monk

Perhaps relating the Assasin / Ritualist / Dervish / Paragon to the Gods that supply the magic will make it easier for me (all) to place the gods and their magic in their places and thus the realms..

Konig Des Todes · Jul 15, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

As we seem to drift off topic anyway, i might aswell give resurrection a place in lore for Konig

You don't need to give them a "place in lore" for me, as I know they have a place in lore. Glint and other NPCs speak of resurrection in a lore sense already. The issue for me with Resurrection, which is why I dislike talking about it, is the mass confusion of why some people can be resurrected, and why others can't. Along with that, why those special NPCs who die throughout quests, cinematics, missions, etc. don't get resurrected themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

For me Resurrection (atleast for us players) is simply a gift from Dwayna (we get the resurrection signet from a monk, from the venture as team quest in pre-searing); So for me it does not only serve a game feature, but it is part of Dwayna's 'magic' aiding the 'weak'.

Aside from the signet from monk comment - as you can be any profession and get it from a skill trainer or warriors (I think) for Factions characters and a Paragon for Nightfall characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

I am unsure which signet/rez one gets on Kryta, but i have seen the sunspear signet on Elona..

The signet one gets in Kryta would be a signet of Capture, which isn't resurrection. So I don't get this comment...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

The Ritualist seems to be a bit of a Grenth/Dwayna inspired profession, having flesh of my flesh which seems to be a bit of a necro rez.

-snip rest-

This is all very much off-topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

I have allready found alot of references to Abaddon having the power of two gods; Relating the professions in the campain to which Abaddon plays his major role would clearify from which gods he got his magic (either granted to him, or taken from these gods by defeating them). Seeing these would be the Assasin and the Ritualist, and their are clearly 'inspired' by Grenth and Baltazar; the Assasin being a warrior type with shadow form/steps, and the ritualist working with Spirits and clearly having a Warrior support role...

This bunch just lost me. What does Abaddon have to do with what you've been saying? And it's not so much Abaddon had the power of two gods, but he could win in a 2 on 1 battle (that is, as strong as two gods combined, there is a difference in words, what you said is saying that he had the powers of two previous gods).

And what do you mean by "Relating the professions in the campain to which Abaddon plays his major role would clearify from which gods he got his magic"? As far as we know, Abaddon had no "profession" as the Dervish profession was made during the Shattered Dynasty (which was way after Abaddon's fall and removal of knowledge of him from Tyria) and, like Elementalists, the Dervishes worship all gods. This little part belongs in this thread.

There does not seem to be a thread for Resurrection alone with lore - though it has been discussed. Feel free to make one (with research of course, those hold better sway for making and starting discussions).

I request we get back to the Mists, as we have been off-topic for long enough.

Arghore · Jul 15, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

I meant Cantha not Kryta (which caused the confusion) ...

Deleted the Abaddon reference as there are allready threads on this ..

I will leave the Ressurection Thread to a monk, as he/she would obviously have more knowledge on the topic... For why some ingame characters can not be ressurected, perhaps it was just their time? (But i can see how it can become quite confusing indeed) ... perhaps we will find an answer in the Mists